How many times has any male introvert nerd been told “If you like (DandD, klingons, magic cards, x…) you’ll never get any girls”?
The aim of this criticism is to point out the superiority of the accepted orthodoxy over the divergent path. The argument is that “You will not be rewarded with social approval for your actions, therefore you are foolish, wrong, and irrational.”
After a lifetime of receiving such criticism and mockery, it becomes easy to start accepting such views as truth. However, the way people and societies work is considerably more complex than extrovert critics care to realize:
Girls aren’t usually interested in dungeons and dragons but neither do they tend to be terribly interested in the intricacies of professional sports, fighting wars, or entering blazing buildings. A pro athlete, soldier, or firefighter tends to attract women not because women share their interests but because of their:
-high social status
-high level of congruency with the orthodoxy.
Many women in the West see sci fi/fantasy fandom as a negative trait because such interests are associated with low social standing and low levels of congruency with the larger society. The general perception is that Nerddom is a zone for beta males who can’t compete in the ‘real’ society.
Thus, if D and D repels the typical cheerleader or sorority girl, it is not because of any inherent property of the game itself. It is about the social meaning attached to the game by any given society. There is no inherent reason, as extrovert critics love to assert, that nerd games ought to be unappealing to women.
The extrovert critic represents the limited perspective of but one of the world’s many societies:
South Korea is a country that treats real time strategy as a professional sport, the players enjoy a great deal of prestige and have no problems with opposite sex. One top protoss player named Bisu is renowned for his good looks and has countless adoring female fans. The players get supplied with pretty ‘booth girls’ who serve them drinks or take care of their needs during the course of a match. The studio audiences at these starcraft matches are composed of people of all ages and contain a high percentage of women.
Thus, if Dungeons and Dragons were on national television and the football team was an underground movement of social outcasts, the roles would be effectively reversed. It is simply a matter of social values.
Thus, if outcasts formed a cohesive new order with their own values installed as the orthodoxy, one need not worry about girls. There would be plenty of prestige and social congruency attached to previously derided and undesirable activities.
Yet another aspect of absolution!
well i have to tell you that around 75% of male teenagers here in Greece are addicted to rpg games and we don’t call them nerds.(they are not the brightest kids but i have the impression that mostly “brainiacs” play rpgs in your country!)
it’s irrelevant to the above but i have to get it out: nerd girls suffer much more than nerd boys .i wish there was a blog like yours but the writer was female!well is there? :>
Very Interesting observations about life as an introvert. As of yet I have read only one of your submissions, and that is this one. I do have a couple of things to comment on thought, so bear with me.
In your first paragraph you state that extroverts criticism on the activities introverts engage in is meant to show the “superiority of the accepted orthodoxy over the divergent path”, and that introverts ” will not be rewarded with social approval for your actions, therefore you are foolish, wrong, and irrational.”
I disagree. Where you might be right, that introverts won’t be rewarded with more “renegade activities”, this does not mean that the introvert is foolish, wrong, or irrational. It seems to me that would be the message an introvert would feel he/she is getting, not the message that was being given.
And no one stated the “accepted orthodoxy” to be the superior path. It seems that you have coined that phrase. While these activities might receive different benefits, different is not synonymous with better.
Finally, your closing line, “Yet another aspect of absolution!” is puzzling to me. You see, absolution is the act of absolving, or a remission of sins pronounced by a priest.
Anyways, sorry to be critical, but I do enjoy the blog; I will definitely subscribe. If you would return the favor and be critical of my blog, that would be wonderful. It just got started a couple days ago, but new content will be added every day.
Regards
Luke
Much of what I write makes more sense when you’ve read more than article. The concepts I explore are generally built one on top of the other.
You misunderstand my intent:
My meaning is that the divergent path tends to be inferior from the conventional perspective.
You would be mistaken to suppose that is my personal opinion.
Absolution describes in this context a different concept than you are used to. I have elaborated on it in other posts. I will hyperlink it to the definition.
I agree that society values traits fairly arbitrarily, but I think your post misses a more important point. I wouldn’t consider players being “supplied with pretty ‘booth girls’ who serve them drinks or take care of their needs during the course of a match” to be something that we, as a society, should aspire to (even if it’s the introvert geeks who supposedly luck out). Sure introverts are awesome, but so are women and I think they should be given some credit. Maybe some women are won over by impressive displays of athleticsm/RTS, but obviously this isn’t always the case. I think many introverts would appreciate more complex relationships as opposed to simply “getting a girl”. But more to the point, do introverts even really care about social status and prestige?
My purpose is not to say that women ought to be cheerleaders/booth girls but to point out that the social roles in question are inherently reversible based on circumstance.
The main point is to demonstrate that there is nothing inherently wrong or inferior about the nerdy adopted culture and interests of social outcasts.
You have vastly misunderstood me if you think I’m saying it’s a women’s place to serve the stud his drinks and do it quickly and submissively!
What I’m saying is that if the circumstances were changed, women would value a nerd for his skills and social allegiances rather than reject him outright.
There is a narrow segment of the female population who do like nerdy outcasts, but the vast majority do not.
Perhaps not all women prefer the guys with highest social prestige. However, this generally holds true. It’s just how our human nature works.
Introverts care about belonging and having a place where they feel accepted just like anyone else. It’s the standards of the oppressive accepted society they don’t much care about.
It’s hard to have a complex, fulfilling relationship with a girl if you can’t ‘get’ her first.
Also you should try to see from the viewpoint of a guy in this case.
As a girl, you can expect to be approached. Guys have to go out and ‘get’ themselves girls. As such, guys don’t have the luxury of being as selective as girls, unless of course they have very high social prestige.
There are a lot of shallow girls who roll their eyes about the sorts of things you like, but I have found that as these girls grow up, they finally learn to appreciate the stability of a guy who has a brain and uses it. I know many, many couples where the guy is an engineer or surgeon and his wife is an extroverted social director. Or perhaps you should give an introverted girl a chance! See the girl who’s reading a book over there….she may not be into the games you like, but you two can have lots of good times together doing other things.
I’ve done more than give an introvert girl a chance! I’m in a relationship with one.
But, for most of my life I have encountered a relentless barrage of women who saw me as an untouchable because of my lack of congruency with the larger society.
Perhaps later in life, many subtle people eventually manage to get a partner, after 10-15 years of involuntary celibacy/unsatisfactory relationships. I would suppose many others are not so lucky.
It is not right to forget or dismiss years of troubles as soon as life finally does go right against the odds.
And I must pose the question: have the former prom queens suddenly changed from the precedent established by their younger life or have they noticed that many of these previously untouchable men now have impressive certificates and positions with the official stamp of the larger society.
unclegluon, what has been your worse experience with an extroverted individual?
I don’t necessarily think it is the chosen hobby that makes the man (D&D versus football) I think it has more to do with how much they obsess about it or put inordinately too much time into it. THe key is to use moderation and attempt to be a well-rounded individual, imho
I think it depends on what kind of woman you are trying to attract — someone who values you for your brains and interests or just for your money/looks/etc.
I have said this before, but it also has to do with being a well-rounded individual. Of course if you are obsessed with D&D to the exclusion of everything else, than obviously there is a problem there. If it is something you do occassionally during your leisure time as a release/escape than that should not hinder your appeal.
hi,
I am an introvert and derived massive comfort from this site. Kindly tell me who write all this..I mean the owner of this site? I would love to communicate.
Do football players play football as an occasional hobby? No. It is their life, their social circle, their source of status. Football players are not exactly textbook examples of well-rounded individuals.
You are not comparing equivalent values when you compare DandD versus football. Though you strive for a sense of balance it is clear that you weigh in favor of the socialite.
How much is too much(inordinate)? Anything beyond the occasional indulgence according to you. You might say very similar things about liquor or smoking. A bad thing that won’t hurt you so long as you limit it to just a little bit. You clearly imply that it is a moderately permissable vice rather than the foundation of a social life or lifestyle.
For you there seems to be nothing in between “to the exclusion of everything else” and “occassionally during your leisure time”
Presumably this occasional indulgence is kept well out of sight and away from the public eye. This is what I can’t help but extrapolate from your use of ‘leisure time’, ‘release/escape.’
You do not explicitly say so, but your tone strongly suggests that DandD is at best a closet activity to be concealed out of a healthy sense of shame.
It does not occur to you that DandD or any other activity associated with nerdliness could lead to their own social circles and their own sources of status.
What then is inordinate? Football players are expected to spend more time and effort on football than they do in school. They receive praise for doing so.
I would point out that your standards are heavily skewed. Bias is of course unavoidable. I will be the first to say that it is not my aim to be impartial on this blog. However, we should at least be aware of where we stand.
I think most of us want a mate with whom we are compatible. If introverts are drawn to the pickup scene, it is an understandable reaction to a lifestyle of involuntary celibacy. In such a lifestyle, actually finding a compatible companion seems so distant as to be beyond hope. Promiscuity is all that appears to remain.
I’ve spent years in that place and I’m glad to be finally be out of it.
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I just started reading your blog a few days ago and you have some very sharp insights. Just wanted to give some polite criticism, if I may:
Not all introverts are into D&D, Magic the Gathering, Star Trek, etc. — I’m sure you realize this yet there is often no distinction made between the different “types” of introverts, who are surely as diverse as any group of people. (Not to mention that not all nerds are introverted.) I would consider myself introverted yet I don’t find most science fiction interesting in the least and consider it cheap and unpoetic (except for stuff like Solaris). My roommate can’t stand anime and unless it’s steak kabob or a video game, is not interested in anything Japanese. Your posts are often very personal and individualized and not always broadly philosophical; I think everyone should remember this. However as I said, you do have some sharp insights and you’ll have to forgive me if this comes off as nitpicking.
I don’t suppose that all introverts are into sci-fi and fantasy, but I certainly would observe that introverts are highly overrepresented in those kinds of communities.
I myself have never been hard core into DandD or MTG but most of the people I got along with tended to be into that kind of thing.
I myself haven’t ever been huge anime fan, though it has been growing on me a bit over the years.
It’s not my intent to write this whole blog to be broadly philosophical. I like giving it a personal, more emotional touch.
And I realize that if I do so, I inevitably say things that might offend or otherwise not perfectly coincide with other people’s life experience and world views.
And I’m fine with that.
I’m glad you can still get value out of what I have to say even if you disagree on some things. After all, I figure the probability of someone coming here and agreeing about every single thing is very small.
Some of my other blogs, such as 6 Heretic’s Way, are much more focused on exploring ideas with very little talk on the personal level.
I remember, back when I was in elementary school, sometimes I would read a good book at recess instead of playing. One day I was sitting on bench reading by myself when a girl came up to me. She told me I should dye my hair blonde and get a boyfriend. That was pretty much it. I’m glad I didn’t listen to her or take very much offense, but it was a very hurtful thing to say.